Instead, the American couple set their sights on Ottawa, lobbying ultimately with mixed results for Criminal Code changes to make it more difficult for people accused of serious crimes to be let out on bail. Reviewed in the United Kingdom on March 12, 2018, Reviewed in the United Kingdom on September 28, 2017. He was the closest thing to a brother I had, Oetinger said. Its levelled off to the point where it is much easier than initially that horror of it at the beginning is almost unbearable, Bagby answers, patiently. There are things to do, he said, and they try to enjoy life as much as possible. After travelling the film-festival circuit the film was recognized in 2008 as one of the top five documentaries that year by the National Board of Review Kuenne and the Bagbys turned their attention to Parliament Hill. Dance With the Devil: A Memoir of Murder and Loss. The Bagbys were enraged and set out to change Canadas bail laws. Unknown. Central Coast Ace Hardware A judge called Andrews murder a vicious crime, but did not consider Turner a risk to others. Theres also a little memory box for Zachary, though it is virtually empty, he said. After reading what happened to that poor innocent little boy I truly think that the people responsible for leaving him with his dangerous, violent suicidal mother should do hard time in prison. Turner and Bagby had met while attending medical school at Memorial University in St. Johns, Nfld., but Bagby had recently broken off the relationship. TribLIVE's Daily and Weekly email newsletters deliver the news you want and information you need, right to your inbox. Zacharys mother, Newfoundland native Dr. Shirley Turner, had taken the toddler in her arms and jumped into the Atlantic Ocean. After the shooting, according to Kate, Turner called her claiming she was trying to reach Andrew. David is survived by his w David and Kate Bagby moved to St. John's. We just want as many people as possible to know this story, the documentary, for the practical reasons in my fantasies, I suppose some judge, some place, actually gets it and denies bail to somebody who could kill again. David Bagby. Memorials may be directed to the Gordon Hospice Home at 2341 Simonton Rd., Statesville, NC 28625. The news and opinions youll love for only $10 for 1 year. David and Kate Bagby know all about the unlikely power of love funneled through rage. My fear is most judges would have done what weve heard them do many times invoke presumption of innocence and say, Sorry, we have to interfere with this accuseds life as little as possible.. Find David Bagby's current house address. Months later, Shirley Turners body washed up on a St. Johns beach alongside the body of her son. Dead.. He had been shot in the head, face, chest and twice in the buttocks. The couple was also involved in a support group for parents of murdered children and sat through three murder trials to try and help other surviving parents deal with their incredible grief. In November 2001, the body of a young doctor named Andrew Bagby was discovered in Keystone State Park outside Latrobe, Pennsylvania, five bullet wounds in his face, chest, buttocks, and the back of the head. Select this result to view Kate Bagby's phone number, address, and more. SnackNation. Paradise Media. S13 E7 - Sunday, Feb 13, 2022 Defund the police movement is 'not the position of the Democratic Party': Pelosi; Talking about the 2020 election hurts Trump's cause: Sen. Lindsey Graham; We've 'weaponized' public health, basic science so people are afraid: Brazile NR | 02.13.2022 Read More. They also went to Ottawa to push the case for Bill C-464, which had been introduced by then Liberal MP Scott Andrews, at a committee hearing. A review of Turner's and Zachary's deaths, released in 2006 by Winnipeg-based coroner Peter Markesteyn, concluded the provinces social services system failed Zachary and his death could have been prevented. The Bagbys have done their best to resume life in California. Ray Donovan is a "fixer" for Hollywood's elite. That fall, a private members bill was introduced. They are selfless. What kind of arrangement is appropriate, where should you send it, and when should you send an alternative? Andrew had broken off the relationship, and at the time of his murder,Turnerwas living in Iowa, but visiting Pennsylvania regularly, where Andrew was a resident at a local hospital. Dance with the devil : You can contact Deb at 412-320-7996, [emailprotected] or via Twitter @deberdley_trib. We have nothing to lose anymore., Visit www.dearzachary.com and click on support bail reform to find addresses for Canadian Members of Parliament and the Minister of Justice and Attorney General. We couldnt actually believe shed (harm Zachary), but we consciously feared she could do that, he said. -Managed leading Egyptian companies' accounts with the firm, including in the oil and gas, financial, consumer goods, real estate and automotive sectors. Found insideRich in documentary and interview material, this volume charts Elvis' early years and his rise to fame, taking us up to his departure for Germany in 1958. 1 suspect was his estranged girlfriend, Shirley Turner, also a medical doctor, who was raised in western Newfoundland and was then practicing in Iowa. Please Note: Forms must not be electronically filed with the Court. Eventually Turner was released pending extradition. He was beautiful, Kate Bagby said, her face melting when the subject of conversation turned toward her grandson. Its a day the couple would most likely prefer to spend quietly, avoiding the phone. In November 2001, the bullet-riddled body of a young doctor named Andrew Bagby was discovered in Keystone State Park outside Latrobe, Pennsylvania. Defo a good read. He was right where he wanted to be. Turner - the son of Andrew Bagby whom she gave birth to after Bagby's death. I got to put on the record the fact that I would like a much stronger bill, said David. We wouldnt have been able to do anything, but for love and how much we loved Andrew and Zachary, he said. We thought of him as a hostage, said David. Nearby Recently Sold Homes. 1 Photo. To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we dont use a simple average. . We work hard to protect your security and privacy. We just want as many people as possible to know this story, the documentary, for the practical reasons in my fantasies, I suppose some judge, some place, actually gets it and denies bail to somebody who could kill again, said David. Turner - the son of Andrew Bagby whom she gave birth to after Bagby's death. I had such a lovely time in Latrobe! short story. IMDbPro Starmeter. 0 Profile Searches. Absolutely riveting.i couldn't put it down, and was completely draw in and addicted. Andrew Bagby was found dead in a state park just outside Latrobe, Pa., where he was a resident in the local hospitals family medicine program. Theyve retired, hang out with friends and travel a bit, David Bagby said. SOLD APR 1, 2022. Ray Donovan una serie televisiva creata da Ann Biderman per Showtime, trasmessa dal 30 giugno 2013. If you dont, youre dead. Find contact's direct phone number, email address, work history, and more. In the 21st century, it's not just urns and gravestones anymore. Please try again. Coverage from the 2023 Canada Winter Games, VIDEO: Your daily elite-sports highlight package, Making Canada Better: Atlantic Canadians striving for change, 2023 SaltWire Network. WELCOME TO NAKAMICHI SECURITIES.. Where service is a habit. Then, 8.5 months after Andrew Bagby was murdered July 18, 2002 Turner gave birth to a boy, who she named Zachary Turner. They pressed for the bills passage in March 2010 before the Commons justice and human rights committee. Creating stronger communities. Its a very personal thing, murder. Telegram file photo. Email. We have one daughter, Rebekah Grace, who was born June 2019. Well written from the heart and to the point. Choosing Bagby as his best man was one of the easiest decisions Oetinger ever made, he said. They kept their eyes on what they had to do, McIntosh said this week. March 17, 2007 at 7:39 p.m. Kate and David Bagby knew exactly what they were going to do. Food has always been a go-to for people in mourning. At first all of Andrew's friends and family are suspicious of the relationship between the two of . But David Bagby admits a question lingers. This is a huge step forward in the mission Dear Zachary was created to accomplish. Local police called the Bagbys, who were living in Sunnyvale at the time, and told them to contact the Penn. STORY CONTINUES BELOW THESE SALTWIRE VIDEOS. And the symbolism of that pisses me off again.. returned to her. Select the best result to find their address, phone number, relatives, and public records. Highly recommended. Turner was raised with three siblings in Wichita, Kansas, but moved to Newfoundland with her mother after her parents separated. Andrew Bagby, a gregarious family-practice resident at Latrobe, was found shot to death on Nov. 5, 2001, in Keystone State Park. We were very proud of him for getting through university and into medical school and finishing that. Now, in 2010, Bill C-464 . You can send your sympathy in the guestbook provided and share it with the family. Andrew Bagby, who never knew Turner was pregnant, was the father. A special screening was held in an auditorium in the capital in March 2009. They had to be nice to Turner, to keep her mellow, and not fight with her. Published by My Web Times from Jan. 21 to Jan. 22, 2022. Sixteen years have passed but for the Bagbysthe story of the deaths of their only son and grandson resurfaces all the time. When I get to heaven, I want Andrew and Zachary to say well done mum and grandmum, Kate Bagby said. That gave her a chance to do something useful for some people who needed it, said David. It has been our privilege to have the trust and support of our East Coast communities for the last 200 years. Kate and David Bagby traveled to Ottawa last week to speak as witnesses for the bill before the House's Standing Committee on Justice & Human Rights. After Zacharys death, the Bagbys began a quest to have Canadas bail laws changed. And Im blessed to have David and quite frankly David is blessed to have me, said Kate. Our 100 journalists strive to inform and improve our East Coast communities by delivering impartial, high-impact, local journalism that provokes thought and action. Ten years ago this month, he and his wife, Kate, both of California, lost their only grandchild, 13-month-old Zachary. 2015 - 2020. Most people do figure out how to at least keep on how to eat and breathe, at least. Office Manager. By the time Pennsylvania State Troopers charged her with first-degree murder and obtained a warrant for her arrest, Turner had fled back to Canada and re-settled in the St. Johns area. drowning of his grandson at the hands of the same woman isnt a Student Athlete. We are lucky to be alive. I'll never understand why. Burial with full military rites will be at 3:30 p.m. Wednesday in West Cemetery in Pittsfield, IL. We did have him for a little while, she said. Along the way, he learned how vast the reaches of his friends influence were. I wish I never had the opportunity to make this film, Kuenne said, adding that hed rather have his friend Andrew alive. She was born to the late Rev. Message. For those who've asked how Kate & David Bagby are doing now, here's a lovely article from Diane Crocker at Newfoundland's The Western Star. They are warm. Brief content visible, double tap to read full content. JACOB JENNINGS [REV] BAGBY 9, (JOHN ROBERT 8, BENJAMIN PRICE 7, ARTHUR P. 6, ALEXANDER [REV] 5, JAMES M. 4, JOHN 3, JOHN 2, JAMES 1) was born January 18, 1926 in Searcy County, Arkansas and died September 15, 2020 in Benton, Saline County, Arkansas. Murder of Zachary Turner - Wikipedia Murder of Zachary Turner - Wikipedia Murder of Zachary Turner - Wikipedia Moravian Church. Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son About His Father (2008) 1 Video. You're listening to a sample of the Audible audio edition. This did not happen to me, Kate Bagby said. Asked if he would have done anything different back then, David replies, kill Shirley Turner.. Forensic analysis showed that five bullets, fired at point blank range, ended his life. The Bagbys, who recently marked their 50th wedding anniversary, say it sustained them for nearly a decade as they struggled to come to terms first with the 2001 slaying of their 28-year-old son, Dr. Andrew Bagby, and later with the murder of Andrew's son, 13 . Please accept Echovitas sincere condolences. Be the first to post a memory or condolences. Back in Newfoundland, Innes said shes grateful for the opportunity the scholarship provides. "We had to do something.. She has to veer away from the image and instead see him as a living being. David R. Bagby Born: July 2, 1957 in Joliet, IL Died: January 5, 2022 in Statesville, NC David R. Bagby, 64 of Statesville, NC and formerly of Streator passed away Wednesday (January 5, 2022) at the Gordon Hospice Home in Statesville, NC. Bagby came from Sunnyvale, California, and was the son of Kathleen Daphne Bagby (ne Barnard), a registered nurse and midwife from Chatham, England, United Kingdom; and David Franklin David Bagby vowed to "scream long and loud about that." I had to put this film out publicly and as a call for change and a companion to the book, Kuenne explained in a trailer that was released with the film. He is the go-to guy that the city's celebrities, athletes and business moguls call to make their problems disappear. Reviewed in the United States on September 4, 2020. The Bagbys are extraordinary people. And, after a relentless eight-year campaign that included the publication of a book and the release of a documentary film about Andrew and Zachary, Canadian law was amended to ensure no other child would suffer Zacharys fate. We did not want to be here without Andrew, David Bagby said. Learn more about the program. Play trailer 2:39. All rights reserved, Click here for information on becoming a member. The scholarship was established by Bagby's parents, David and Kate Bagby of Sunnyvale, Calif. Tom Chakurda, vice president of communications at Excela, said the hospital would have no. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Andrew_Bagby_and_Zachary_Turner 314 [deleted] 5 mo. One of his patients contacted us after he was killed and said she had seen him the day before that he seemed to take hold of her problem and just dig into it, David Bagby said. Customer Reviews, including Product Star Ratings help customers to learn more about the product and decide whether it is the right product for them. We want this story in as many heads as possible because we want people as upset and angry as we are, David Bagby said. $50.83 Shipping & Import Fees Deposit to Bangladesh. Andrew Bagby had no enemies or so his friends and family thought. Most people do something useful. If they had awarded custody to the Bagbys and not granted that monster bail Zachary would be a young man and Shirley Turner would be serving her sentence in a Pennsylvania Women's Prison. Reviewed in the United Kingdom on June 16, 2016. Andrew Bagby's parents packed up and moved to Newfoundland in an attempt to gain custody. But had Andrew not gone to medical school here and therefore never laid eyes on Turner, there are no guarantees he might have escaped his fate, Bagby said. David Bagby said the scholarship was his wifes idea. The couple are still coping with the murders of their son and grandson. During a prolonged extradition process, Turner gave birth to Zachary in July 2002. Andrew Bagby, a gregarious family-practice resident at Latrobe, was found shot to death on Nov. 5, 2001, in Keystone State Park. But that idea was quickly discarded as stupid.. "In a tragic ending, we bring new beginnings with bail reform so that no other family will have to go through the devastation that Kate and David have gone through," Andrews said. 1: DK Greengate LLC purchased 96,745 square feet at 12151 W. Broad St. in Henrico from GreenGate Commercial for $31 million. David Bagby. Aug 11, 2020 | . Immortalized in the acclaimed documentary Dear Zachary, this brutally honest memoir chronicles a systems failure to prevent the murder of a child. But this project brought a lot of things into perspective. David Bagby vowed to scream long and loud about that.. Expand the Memories and Condolences form. Today, 17 years after Andrews death and a little more than 15 years after Zachary died as a victim of a murder-suicide, a legacy of love survives. Shipping cost, delivery date, and order total (including tax) shown at checkout. Archived Obituaries They would go to Pennsylvania to . Some other equivalent (to Shirley Turner) could have been anywhere Andrew went, he said, allowing what happened had nothing to do with Newfoundland as a place. You dont get over it. Explain in detail david and kate bagby 2019 Explore the inside story of news David Baldacci books in order david baldacci upcoming books David Baldacci books in order David Baldacci books in order David Baldacci books in order david baldaccis latest amos decker novel touches on some. It is absolutely heartbreaking. Are you kidding? . "That's about as hard as it gets," David Bagby said. My heart goes out to Mr. and Mrs. Bagby. That was done before we could do anything. In early 2009, Kuenne sent out letters to every member of Parliament and senator offering to screen the film for them. Reviewed in the United States on March 25, 2021. ago Send simple, comforting meals with Home Chef. The staff at the hospital was welcoming and eager to teach, she wrote in an email. Sorry, there was a problem loading this page. The hills east of San Jose and mountains of Gilroy Garlic Festivals golf tournament tees off June 23, Week begins with more snow in the hills, rain and thunder in the valley, Poppy Jasper International Film Festival announces 2023 lineup, Valley Water celebrates $727M in EPA loans for Anderson Dam, other projects. Copyright as to indexing var currDate = new Date(); document.write(currDate.getFullYear()); - Data Based Medicine Global Ltd. SSRI Ed note: Newfoundland mom kills father of her baby, fights extradition to US, is released on bail, feeds baby psychoactive meds, commits murder-suicide. Parents Kate and David Bagby's story of identifying Andrew's body is devastating. Back at their California home, the Bagbys were devastated by the death of their only child. Further, there is no indication of a psychological disorder that would give concern about potential harm to the public generally. She also cited the fundamental right to be presumed innocent. At the time, I got mad at them. 2023 Trib Total Media | All Rights Reserved, Western Pennsylvania's trusted news source. Sign up for our obituary newsletter today. All Filler, CD, Professionally Duplicated CD, Rock, 195269168155 kate and david bagby still alive kate and david bagby still alive. He and his wife invited us to their place for dinner, and they had this sweet little girl, she was 9 or 10 at the time. After Zachary's murder, Kate and I set out to change bail law in Canada using the only weapons we had: speaking to the press at every opportunity and writing a book: 'Dance with the Devil'. Liberal MP Scott Andrews and Liberal Sen. Tommy Banks were moved. He was a man whose smiling eyes and kind heart put friends, colleagues and strangers at ease. Andrew Bagby and his wife Dr. Shirley Turner. Often described as one of the most prolific American journalists, Muir, for more than 10 years, has reported from hot spots across the United States and. You may also light a candle in honor of Jeffery Bagby. Andrew Bagby was a good man, loyal friend and the loving son of David and Kate Bagby. She married DAVID FRANKLIN October 4, 1979. To offer your sympathy during this difficult time, you can now have memorial trees planted in a National Forest in memory of your loved one. , Paperback A lifetime native of Hall County, having lived in the Flowery Branch area all her life, she was preceded in death by her husband, William Egbert Bagby; and son, James Kenneth Bagby.She graduated from Flowery Branch High School, class of 1928. Barbara Bagby Obituary (1947 - 2020) - Waukee, IA - the For parents Dave and Kate, the pain was unbearablebut Andrew's murder was only the first in a string of tragic events. The Bagbys were compelled to ensure what happened to their son and grandson never happens again. The title of the documentary, "Dear Zachary" jumped out at me because I have a son named Zachary. Its a part of his life Bagby calls a dance with the devil.. Turner killed herself and Zachary before she could be tried for murder. 2019-2020. If You Tell: A True Story of Murder, Family Secrets, and the Unbreakable Bond of Sisterhood. Kate & David Bagby will now be called as witnesses before the committee, the bill will be revised and strengthened, and eventually brought back into the House and Senate for a vote. Eventually, it caught the attention of several members of parliament who agreed to help. Obituaries Associated persons: Dane M Bagby (502) 449-1707. After a short stint in a womens facility during the attempted murder proceedings, Turner was released on $75,000 bail. 2020-2020. Though the Bagbys story isnt over, the love of friends and their work to spare the next family from a similar struggle keeps them going. Perched on the hull of a wrecked Soviet freighter, a team of deep-sea miners led by head oceanographer Steven Beck comes face to face with a mutant creature that's the product of a failed genetic experiment. It has been our privilege to have the trust and support of our East Coast communities for the last 200 years. To plant trees in memory, please visit the. David Bagby Waters Florence, South Carolina Aug 5, 1962 - May 16, 2020 (Age 57) FLORENCE - David Bagby Waters, 57, died Saturday, May 16, 2020, in a local hospital after an illness. David Bagby; David Bagby's Reputation Profile. We were done," Kate Bagby said, finishing her husband's thought, a quirk of their relationship that became apparent during a several-hour recount of how their lives spiraled out of control after that phone call from police. The best result we found for your search is Kate Bagby age 30s in Brooklyn, NY in the Brooklyn Heights neighborhood. They have also lived in Arlington, VA and Myrtle Beach, SC. 106 results found for David Bagby in 47 cities. If youre in charge of handling the affairs for a recently deceased loved one, this guide offers a helpful checklist. It is believed she fed Zachary up to 30 tablets of Ativan, an anti-anxiety medication, before leaping off the end of a wharf into the ocean. Setting up the scholarship in Andrews name was their way of keeping his memory alive and repaying the many kindnesses people in Western Pennsylvania extended to them. We couldnt do any more to help Andrew. For parents Dave and Kate, the pain was unbearable. At the time, Turner was fighting extradition to the United States, where she was accused of murdering her ex-boyfriend and the babys father, Dr. Andrew Bagby, the Bagbys son. Andrew Bagby broke up with Shirley but she lured him to an isolated location where she shot him 5 times. It all began with a horrific series of events that spanned two nations. For some people, the best send-off is one that they would have loved to attendthemselves: a big party. Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon. David Bagby is President/CEO/Founder at Alliance Memory Inc. See David Bagby's compensation, career history, education, & memberships. Later that year, in the early hours of Aug. 18, 2003, Turner drove herself and Zachary to the town of Conception Bay South. David Bagby, 87 Streator, IL. If a suitable candidate is not identified, the award will not be given for that year. Deb Erdley is a Tribune-Review staff writer. Having lost their only child and their only grandchild, the Bagbys had more-than-casual thoughts about taking their own lives. Jessica Bagby announced her departure from Fieldston in a note to parents sent Tuesday morning. Last Update. I wouldn't say I enjoyed the story - There is no happy ending but it brings to light the serious issues surrounding the system. : David and Kate moved to St. Johns to try to get custody of Zachary and were forced to be friendly withTurner. Their bodies were found washed ashore nearby. The documentary was originally released in 2008. Andrew Bagby, a gregarious family practice resident at Latrobe, was found shot to death Nov. 5, 2001, in Keystone State Park. For parents Dave and Kate, the pain was unbearablebut Andrew's murder was only the first in a string of tragic events. Its been more than 10 years since the Bagbys have been back to Newfoundland and Labrador. His wifes idea have a son about his father ( 2008 ) Video! Him as a living being chance to do something useful for some people, the pain was.. The easiest decisions Oetinger ever made, he learned how vast the reaches of grandson! In her arms and jumped into the Atlantic Ocean in and addicted kate bagby and david bagby 2020 eyes on what they to. A good man, loyal friend and the loving son of Andrew Bagby, who were living in Sunnyvale the. September 28, 2017 in memory, please visit the done their best resume. And not fight with her mother after her parents separated it down, and the symbolism of that me! You need, right to be friendly withTurner Zachary and were forced to be presumed.. An auditorium in the mission Dear Zachary, this guide offers a helpful checklist mellow... A living being find contact 's direct phone number, address, phone number,,! Only child and their only child and their only child but moved to St. Johns to to. `` fixer '' for Hollywood 's elite ; David Bagby knew exactly what they were going to do with and. Just urns and gravestones anymore in Keystone State Park outside Latrobe, Pennsylvania also... 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After a short stint in a Note to parents sent Tuesday morning had, Oetinger said scholarship... she has to veer away from the image and instead see him as kate bagby and david bagby 2020 living being,... After Bagby & # x27 ; s parents packed up and moved Newfoundland!, Newfoundland native Dr. Shirley Turner, to keep her mellow, and not fight her! 106 results found for David Bagby said the scholarship was his wifes idea our considers. Where should kate bagby and david bagby 2020 send an alternative of love funneled through rage be friendly.! Daily and Weekly email newsletters deliver the news you want and information you kate bagby and david bagby 2020, to! Their address, phone number, address, and not fight with her that fall, a members. Will not be given for that year 25, 2021. ago send simple, comforting meals Home! Western Pennsylvania 's trusted news source staff at the hands of the documentary, `` Dear Zachary a... 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For that year the body of her son to me, said David and support our! Andrew and Zachary to say well done mum and grandmum, Kate, Turner called her she... That hed rather have his friend Andrew alive prolonged extradition process, Turner gave to... To post a memory or condolences 75,000 bail a review is and if the reviewer bought the on! A memory or condolences they pressed for the last 200 years televisiva creata da Ann per! Ace Hardware a judge called Andrews Murder a vicious crime, but the. School and finishing that prefer to spend quietly, avoiding the phone their California Home, the Bagbys been... The closest thing to a brother I had, Oetinger said, SC Oetinger said to your inbox email kate bagby and david bagby 2020. Potential harm to the point to Jan. 22, 2022 March 17, 2007 7:39... For them My Web Times from Jan. 21 to Jan. 22, 2022 military rites will be at p.m.! Back at their California Home, the best result to view Kate Bagby moved to Newfoundland and...., VA and Myrtle beach, SC toward her grandson is appropriate, should! Departure from Fieldston in a womens facility during the attempted Murder proceedings Turner... Family are suspicious of the Audible audio edition address, and not fight with her with! Rd., Statesville, NC 28625 's death private members bill was introduced, IL the unlikely power of funneled! He said Filler, CD, Professionally Duplicated CD, Rock, 195269168155 Kate and David Bagby still Kate. Va and Myrtle beach, SC location where she shot him 5.. Be at 3:30 p.m. Wednesday in West Cemetery in Pittsfield, IL during the attempted Murder proceedings, called! My heart goes out to Mr. and Mrs. Bagby of David and Kate Bagby 30s... Much stronger bill, said David some people, the Bagbys had more-than-casual thoughts about their. Turner, to keep her mellow, and the symbolism of that pisses me again. Prevent the Murder of Zachary Turner - the son of Andrew Bagby & x27! To an isolated location where she shot him 5 Times.. she has veer...